Thank you, I take that as a compliment.

I have had that happen a few times on various projects. One click, one shift-click to select all the "ready to run" tasks and clicking on <abort> works wonders.

Yeah, it is annoying when it happens and even more if it happens often. But once in a while isn't a big issue.

Hi all. Still can't remember previous time I had to cancel wu's (from this or other project). It's not that normal as all of You know.

This time I had a low caché (set at 1 day work) but, as it has been commented somewhere else, servers got crazy. I had to cancel at least 50 or 60 wu's. But since then everything has been ok. And will keep crunching here for a long while (though Yoyo-muon and SkyNet POGS are my other DC lovers).

@ Jan Vaclavick: If You've ever done SETI You understand why grabbing so many wu's is suggested. As Dagorath points out, SETI's servers are constantly out of duty due to maintenance/broken/stolen/kidnapped/abducted or whatever. If You only crunch in SETI 24h/day having the computer iddle is really annoying. In my case I'm now doing a little of SETI (sorry mates, I must admit it), but with Einsten as well. So if SETI servers are down, my computer's GPU won't spend the whole weekend iddle (it happened to me a time ago when I was doing only CPU SETI).

Will have a look at SETI's forums to see what You say about them... curious.

@ Dagorath: I laughed a lot imagining myself doing the kabuki dance; it would be a terryfiying spectacle lol.
About what You said that SETI hasn't found anything. I agree, it must be disappointing after so many years but even though it must be tried. You can also see Einstein's targets. One of this is (if I'm not wrong) finding gravitational waves (IIRC Einstein said they existed, not sure of this). Till the date nothing has been found but they keep insisting and there are plans to build a bigger laboratory like that of LIGO. The other goal of this project, finding pulsars out there, has had more success.

About what You said that SETI hasn't found anything. I agree, it must be disappointing after so many years but even though it must be tried.

It must be tried? How can anybody say it must be tried when there is no hope of success? And when success would bring no benefit anyway? And when there are projects that have a reasonable chance of being successful and returning some benefit?

You can also see Einstein's targets. One of this is (if I'm not wrong) finding gravitational waves (IIRC Einstein said they existed, not sure of this). Till the date nothing has been found but they keep insisting and there are plans to build a bigger laboratory like that of LIGO. The other goal of this project, finding pulsars out there, has had more success.

Gravity waves is different from aliens. We have good indications gravity waves exist we need only adjust our method of searching for them until they are either found or we are able to say "we explored every avenue and have come up empty handed therefore we conclude gravity waves do not exist". The nature of the search for aliens does not allow that kind of reasoning. If gravity waves exist then we know how they must behave and how we can identify them. If aliens exist we have absolutely no idea how they would behave, what they would do, if they are able to communicate and how they would do so. The dumb asses at SETI simply assume they would communicate via radio at the frequency of the vibrations of the hydrogen atom but that is based upon our atomic theory which is just theory. Aliens probably see the universe much differently and have no understanding of hydrogen and its vibration frequency. And they likely use something other than radio. Even if they did use radio the possibility of those signals reaching Earth has about the same possibility of you tasting the sweetness of a sugar lump placed in a dead pig's mouth by sucking on it's anus. Therefore proof one way or the other will never be, never. And in God's name why? Why waste CPU time on that stupidity when there is a good chance the CPU time would have some benefits at other projects. It's the same stupidity that underlies gambling addiction. Gambling addicts are in love with the possibilities a big win will bring to them but they never stop to think and realize they have next to zero chance of winning. It's romance, not science, that drives them. Now before you make some stupid attempt to tell us how the world should be driven by romance rather than science and reason stop and THINK, think of the centuries of history where the world WAS dominated and governed that way and ask yourself if you REALLY want to say we should be like that. THINK!!! And take time to learn of the "science" and "reasoning" that drives the SETI dolts and ask yourself if you really want to stoop that low.

No, there is no MUST, there is no WE HAVE TO. Only morons think they MUST. Educated people know there is always a choice between what makes sense and what does not make sense. THINK... which way are you going to chose... the stupid way or the sensible way?

I'm new here and this thread has me llol.

On that note the topic could be changed to "Hello Asteroids@home!"

Hi Dagorath.
Very good the comparation of probabilities (the lump and the pig, :) ).

As You may know the way I choose is my bussiness alone. I respect Your opinion and must agree that you, for sure, are more right than me (never forget I'm an absolute noob in these fields; didn't know, nor understand, what you said about the vibrations of hydrogen; last time I studied chemistry&physics was nearly 20 years ago).

A few months ago I read a book which was about extraterrestrial life and intelligence. The final line, acording to the author (an astrophisic, astronomer, don't remember exactly though if interested I can search) was that life outside Earth did exist; intelligent life besides that found on Earth? he concluded it was really difficult to find any. So, are we a weird natural experiment? A joke of nature? Perhaps.

Obviously SETI is looking (perhaps in the wrong way as You say) for the existence of old signals from others out there.

What I meant was that even though the chances are extremely low (or non-existent) we should (not MUST, ok) give it a try. Lest not be said we never tried.

IIUC, You think SETI is a waste of time and useless (correct me if I'm wrong). Well, it would not be the first thing mankind has done which was, a priori, useless.

But never forget one thing: how many discoveries have been made when looking for other things (or even not knowing they were looking for something)? Pulsars, radiation, peniciline, and so on if I'm not wrong... Perhaps one day SETI will proof to be useful for something (even if it's only to show how silly we've been to search in that way).

On the other hand watch SETI as a very big useful tool. How many of nowadays crunchers started because of SETI (even the movie "Contact")? Most people start there in the DC world and then switch to other projects. So in most cases it's been thanks to SETI that projects like this get so many crunchers. I'm one of this: I started with SETI and soon learned there's a world outside SETI on the DC (my stats on the DC show it clearly); and at the end I found this community.

Surely You won't agree with me, but we always can do the kabuki dance as You said before lol lol.

Hope to hear from You all soon, as I really enjoy this forum.

Hi Dagorath.
Very good the comparation of probabilities (the lump and the pig, :) ).

As You may know the way I choose is my bussiness alone. I respect Your opinion and must agree that you, for sure, are more right than me (never forget I'm an absolute noob in these fields; didn't know, nor understand, what you said about the vibrations of hydrogen; last time I studied chemistry&physics was nearly 20 years ago).

It has been even longer than that for me. I took courses in physics and chemistry at university but was finished in 1975. Still, after you have the foundations you don't forget and you can go back and review and understand what it means again and apply that to current situations.

A few months ago I read a book which was about extraterrestrial life and intelligence. The final line, acording to the author (an astrophisic, astronomer, don't remember exactly though if interested I can search) was that life outside Earth did exist; intelligent life besides that found on Earth? he concluded it was really difficult to find any. So, are we a weird natural experiment? A joke of nature? Perhaps.

I believe there is, was or will be sentient life on other worlds. But that is irrelevant to the question of whether SETI is a sensible way to search for that life. Talk of other sentient lifeforms on other worlds is very romantic and appealing but we must learn to not let our desire to find that life lead us into doing something stupid like SETI. See it's not the searching that is wrong, the searching is good. What is wrong is the way we are doing it. What we ought to do is build probes that we send across the galaxy to listen for signals out there between the stars where the signal will be stronger. I would support that 100%.

Obviously SETI is looking (perhaps in the wrong way as You say) for the existence of old signals from others out there.

Old, new, it is irrelevant to the fact that the search method is hopeless. If I may go back to the pig and sugar lump metaphor... does it matter if the pig is young or old? No! You will never taste the sugar's sweetness no matter how old the pig is.

What I meant was that even though the chances are extremely low (or non-existent) we should (not MUST, ok) give it a try. Lest not be said we never tried.

I look at it the other way... since the odds are so low we may as well say they are zero we should not try the SETI way lest they say we are stupid. Trying even when there is no hope is not a sign of courage or tenacity or anything admirable or noble. It is a sign of stupidity and that is all it is, stupidity.

IIUC, You think SETI is a waste of time and useless (correct me if I'm wrong). Well, it would not be the first thing mankind has done which was, a priori, useless.

You are saying we have made mistakes in the past therefore it is proper and beneficial for us to continue making mistakes? Really?

But never forget one thing: how many discoveries have been made when looking for other things (or even not knowing they were looking for something)? Pulsars, radiation, peniciline, and so on if I'm not wrong...

You are talking about serendipity and it's a fact of research, it happens. However serendipity is totally unpredictable. You cannot argue that SETI is more likely to yield a beneficial serendipitous discovery than any other investigation therefore it behooves us to hope for serendipity from investigations that have some reasonable chance of achieving their primary, stated objective. SETI has no such chance.

Perhaps one day SETI will proof to be useful for something (even if it's only to show how silly we've been to search in that way).

But we can see it is absurd now. We don't need to waste another 20 years on it. If you examine the issue rationally and divorce yourself from all the false arguments and romance that you have presented above it is so obviously absurd.

On the other hand watch SETI as a very big useful tool. How many of nowadays crunchers started because of SETI (even the movie "Contact")? Most people start there in the DC world and then switch to other projects. So in most cases it's been thanks to SETI that projects like this get so many crunchers.

SETI has attracted a lot crunchers, true. But that doesn't mean it is the best way to attract crunchers. The reason SETI brings new crunchers is because every article about BOINC you read in the media always mentions SETI and (usually) no other project. If it mentioned Rosetta, Einstein, Asteroids or any other project then we would be saying that project brings new crunchers into the community.

Also, I make it a point to introduce at least 1 person per day to BOINC. By that I mean people I meet face to face in real life. I carry with me a card that has the URL to the BOINC site on it. After 6 years or more of introducing people that way I have discovered that if I mention SETI along with BOINC I usually get a negative reaction. If I mention the medical research I usually get a favorable reaction. And if if I mention the credits I usually get a negative reaction to that too because people see that as totally childish and I agree, it is. So SETI and credits turn off more people than they turn on and that's not just IMHO that is what I actually see happening.

@ Jan Vaclavick: If You've ever done SETI You understand why grabbing so many wu's is suggested. As Dagorath points out, SETI's servers are constantly out of duty due to maintenance/broken/stolen/kidnapped/abducted or whatever. If You only crunch in SETI 24h/day having the computer iddle is really annoying. In my case I'm now doing a little of SETI (sorry mates, I must admit it), but with Einsten as well. So if SETI servers are down, my computer's GPU won't spend the whole weekend iddle (it happened to me a time ago when I was doing only CPU SETI).

I could understand this back in the day when the project had its own client, but since they moved to boinc, people can simply help with other projects during the downtime of their favourite project.

Speaking of GPUs, is there any project (other than Collatz) that can use old hardware like the integrated HD 4250?

"Нельзя объять необъятное" - Козьма Прутков
"Nobody can take hold of limitless." - Kozma Prutkov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozma_Prutkov

Nothing is 100 percent certain. If this is true it renders itself wrong ;)


For me you seem to be overly convinced (99.99999%) that radio-SETI around 1420 MHz electromagnetic radiation frequency is hopeless/useless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_line
http://www.setileague.org/askdr/hydrogen.htm

You are right that too much variables are not known ("If aliens exist we have absolutely no idea how they would behave, what they would do, if they are able to communicate and how they would do so.")
... so some assumptions/'fate' ('intuitive belief') is needed ;)

This is how I understand it:
SETI makes assumption that there may exist 'nearby' civilization that may want intentionally communicate with other civilizations.

Such civilization need to be 'social' (want to intentionally communicate) and need to be 'advanced' (know about the universe at least at our level).

("Aliens probably see the universe much differently and have no understanding of hydrogen and its vibration frequency." - yes, such kind of 'non-tech' (in our understanding) civilization will not be found by radio-SETI
Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No. There is another.
(so radio-SETI searches only for 'another')

"And they likely use something other than radio." - very probably. But if they know about something better I can't believe they not know about electromagnetic radiation since that is emitted by every star.
If they are 'desperate' to communicate they will send signals in every way they know (even the 'old-fashion' radio).
And if they are not stupid they will make certain their emission will be different from any natural source.
)

So the 'belief' depends on "are you willing to accept such assumptions" (I am).
(Is it worth to search only for civilizations that know about electromagnetic waves, atoms and their emission/absorption frequencies, etc. and that want to send signals in every way they know)

What we ought to do is build probes that we send across the galaxy to listen for signals out there between the stars where the signal will be stronger. I would support that 100%.

Just that will be useless with our today (or 'near' future) technology/knowledge.

What is the fastest man made object?:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090515160146AAR9cJt

250 000 km/h / 3600 = 69 km/s = 69 000 m/s

The speed of light in vacuum: ~ 300 000 000 m/s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light

300 000 000 / 69 000 = 4347 times slower than light (than any electromagnetic wave e.g. radio)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-year

Cosmic Distance Scales - The Nearest Star:
http://heasarc.nasa.gov/docs/cosmic/nearest_star_info.html

The nearest (to the Sun) star is ~4 light-years away.
So the radio signal can go to (or from) it in as short as 4 (Earth) years but the 'probes' will need:
4 * 4347 = 17388 years


Distance to the Galactic Center is ~25,000 light years (radio signal will travel ~25,000 years)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Center#Distance_to_the_Galactic_Center_and_bar

And the 'probes' will travel 25 000 * 4347 = ~100 000 000 years!
(So with our technology/knowledge in foreseeable future to "send probes across the galaxy to listen for signals out there between the stars" is nearly impossible)

(The best quiet place to "listen for signals" for us is the back (invisible from Earth) side of the Moon with some 'big ear')

---

- ALF - "Find out what you don't do well ..... then don't do it!" :)

Greetings all,

Well, I see that the high priestess, Dagaroth, is still spewing venom. I guess she just does not know when to quit.

So, in honor of her great negativity, and venomous attacks on anyone she does not like, I dedicate this thread to her.

Have fun everyone and keep on BOINCing...! :)

---

CMDR Siran d'Vel'nahr XO
USS Vre'kasht NCC-33187

Siran's website: [ ONLINE! ]

"Нельзя объять необъятное" - Козьма Прутков
"Nobody can take hold of limitless." - Kozma Prutkov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozma_Prutkov

Nothing is 100 percent certain. If this is true it renders itself wrong ;)

If I give you a soup spoon and a toy dump truck and ask you use the spoon to dig up Mt. Everest, load it into the dump truck and haul it to a point 10 miles away I can be absolutely certain you will fail. This "no certainty" nonsense is for people who don't have the cajones to to speak what is blatantly true.

For me you seem to be overly convinced (99.99999%) that radio-SETI around 1420 MHz electromagnetic radiation frequency is hopeless/useless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_line
http://www.setileague.org/askdr/hydrogen.htm

You are right that too much variables are not known ("If aliens exist we have absolutely no idea how they would behave, what they would do, if they are able to communicate and how they would do so.")
... so some assumptions/'fate' ('intuitive belief') is needed ;)

No it is not needed or necessary. That is the first mistake in the SETI crap. The second mistake is to act upon those crap assumptions.

This is how I understand it:
SETI makes assumption that there may exist 'nearby' civilization that may want intentionally communicate with other civilizations.

Such civilization need to be 'social' (want to intentionally communicate) and need to be 'advanced' (know about the universe at least at our level).

It is stupid to assume they are social. Maybe they are smarter than us and unlike us realize they ought not to go advertising their presence until they have the technology to defend themselves against creatures that hear the advertisement and come looking for food.

And as for understanding the universe at our level.... how macho can you be? Our understanding is a construct built upon our 5 senses. To think they could understand the universe the way we do you have to make the very stupid assumption they they have the same 5 senses AND have observed exactly what we have observed AND have interpreted all those observations exactly the way we have and have a reality construct that includes what we call hydrogen. They may see it all completely different.... no hydrogen, no absorption-emisssion, no radio, nothing that we "see" or experience or "know".

("Aliens probably see the universe much differently and have no understanding of hydrogen and its vibration frequency." - yes, such kind of 'non-tech' (in our understanding) civilization will not be found by radio-SETI

That is the crux of the matter. I think the possibility of them seeing the universe the way we do and then transmitting at/near the absorption-emission frequency of hydrogen is so utterly low we're better off spending those CPU cycles we waste at SETI on something that has a chance of success.

Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No. There is another.
(so radio-SETI searches only for 'another')

To me this is what the SETIs always do... when logic fails invoke the romance of some Star Wars character or scene to cloud judgement and make their stupidity look like sense again. This is why P.T. Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute." Just show the suckers a little razzle-dazzle and they'll empty their pockets for you.

"And they likely use something other than radio." - very probably. But if they know about something better I can't believe they not know about electromagnetic radiation since that is emitted by every star.

Emitted by every star in our version of reality not necessarily in theirs.

If they are 'desperate' to communicate they will send signals in every way they know (even the 'old-fashion' radio).

Again, you mistakenly assume they conceive of radio.

And if they are not stupid they will make certain their emission will be different from any natural source.

Their perception of natural and unnatural is probably different than ours. Why do you assume ours is the only way? Well, OK, for sake of argument and therory assume whatever you want no matter how foolish it is but it is completely stupid to go the next step and waste valuable resources on it. Thinking is one thing, spending is another.

So the 'belief' depends on "are you willing to accept such assumptions" (I am).

Well then you're not nearly as intelligent as I once thought you were.

(Is it worth to search only for civilizations that know about electromagnetic waves, atoms and their emission/absorption frequencies, etc. and that want to send signals in every way they know)

Sorry, the above is not the question. It misses the mark entirely for it assumes all intelligence must sense the universe and interpret their experiences exactly the way we do. Ridiculous.

What we ought to do is build probes that we send across the galaxy to listen for signals out there between the stars where the signal will be stronger. I would support that 100%.

Just that will be useless with our today (or 'near' future) technology/knowledge.

True. And if we're stupid enough to waste resources on garbage like SETI then it will likely be a very long, long time before we have such technology. SETI and invading and destroying countries over WMD that did not exist because we're stupid enough to believe some monkey-brained piece of crap like G.W.Bush... that will be our claim to fame and our destruction. And when you reason that way with the SETIs their response is further stupidity... the lottery addiction... if we gamble long enough and hard enough we will eventually win the lottery and ET will give us all the new tech we need.... frackin idiots. ET is the new messiah, the new Jesus Christ, the Saviour. No, we have only us to depend on.

What is the fastest man made object?:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090515160146AAR9cJt

250 000 km/h / 3600 = 69 km/s = 69 000 m/s

The speed of light in vacuum: ~ 300 000 000 m/s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light

300 000 000 / 69 000 = 4347 times slower than light (than any electromagnetic wave e.g. radio)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-year

Cosmic Distance Scales - The Nearest Star:
http://heasarc.nasa.gov/docs/cosmic/nearest_star_info.html

The nearest (to the Sun) star is ~4 light-years away.
So the radio signal can go to (or from) it in as short as 4 (Earth) years but the 'probes' will need:
4 * 4347 = 17388 years


Distance to the Galactic Center is ~25,000 light years (radio signal will travel ~25,000 years)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Center#Distance_to_the_Galactic_Center_and_bar

And the 'probes' will travel 25 000 * 4347 = ~100 000 000 years!
(So with our technology/knowledge in foreseeable future to "send probes across the galaxy to listen for signals out there between the stars" is nearly impossible)

Yep... the inevitable arithmetic to show the hopelessness of any other approach. Sorry, it doesn't wash.

(The best quiet place to "listen for signals" for us is the back (invisible from Earth) side of the Moon with some 'big ear')

I doubt it, for the same reason it no longer makes sense to built orbiting telescopes... we now have the tech that allows us to filter out the interference caused by Earth's atmosphere. Yes, that's light but it's all EMR so I assume we can do the same with radio. It's the interference caused by black holes, quasars, neutron stars and such that bothers me. In my the only way to get around that is send a probe closer to the potential signal source. Also a big ear on the moon is limited by the horizon so it can see only a small portion of the total observable. You could overcome that with several ears strategically placed around the moon but still there is the interference from other sources outside the solar system.

heh, Saran d'Wrap,

Back to spew a little of your own venom and holier than thou-ness, eh? As if your abandoning the 600 tasks wasn't enough of an insult. Yeah, we feel nothing but love from you too, dude.

Hi all.

1st: I spoke of a book I read. Found it: "Alone in the Universe: Why Our Planet Is Unique" by John Gribbin. Just in case someone may be interested in reading it. It's somewhat sad (for a lover of science fiction as me), for everything this man says leads to think there's nearly no chance to find intelligent life out there

2nd: Siran, I've my doubts Dagorath can ever be said to be a priest... perhaps with his alien friends (with whom he visited Cheliabinsk last day...). By the way, You treat him as a women, but IIRC, he once said he had bet something with his wife. Obviously it doesn't matter what he/she is, as long as he keeps as he/she is.

3rd. @ Dagorath.

First question should be: are we (mankind) interested in finding evidences of intelligence out there?

a) making mistakes is not proper nor beneficial for mankind. It's simply the way we're made (unfortunately). But fortunately we learn of them.
What I meant to say was that SETI's been working for quite long. If what You say is correct, and their search method is not correct well, we've been for years being silly. So, we've learned from the mistake, so it's time to change the point of view and look for another search method.

b)about probes.
Here I agree with BilBg, probes may not yet be the answer to the problem. To begin with they're very expensive, prone to problems both in launch and in later operation. Taking them to the edge of the Solar System may take decades (i.e. voyager I & II). IIUC You didn't suggested sending probes to near stars, just outside the solar system to "listen" for others. That would pose another problem, keeping in touch with the probe; any order would've to be anticipated for long times for the orders to reach the probe (may be possible though...)

IMHO, by now the better way to search for ET's is the passive way. With big antennas/radio telescopes/telescopes/freaks with telescopes, whatever; not going for them with probes. Where to put the devices? Moon, middle of the space, near Saturn or in the parking lot that's nothing I can say for lack of knowledge.

c) poor Kozma Prutkov.
I agree with Dagorath. This sentence may sound beautiful; may cheer up sad people but it's more sound-beautiful than real. The example given is very eloquent.

d) about the hydrogen assumption.
IIRC of my studies, whatever the senses other species may have, hydrogen will behave exactly for them as for us. You only need the correct instruments to detect the caracteristics. Another thing is if aliens may, or not, pay atention to hydrogen. I supose SETI uses the hydrogen for it's the most commont element in space and so easy to obtain.

e) "Emitted by every star in our version of reality not necessarily in theirs."
Are You thinking of a non-baryonic mater civilization? In this case, AFAIK, we'll have big troubles contacting them.
Or perhaps thinking on parallel universes? In this case, I think it'll be impossible to contact them.

f) ET's attitude: I think it was Paulli (not sure) who once asked: "If they're not here, where are they?".
There may be ET's but: 1) they may not be technologicaly advanced like us 150 years ago; 2)may have technology enough, but happy simply watching their own belly button and finding it very beautiful; 3) with technology and ravenous to find someone out there (us in this case) whatever for (eating/mating/sharing with/talking to us).
As Dagorath's says it's obvious we can only count with ourselves (unfortunately when ruled by people like nowadays politicians)

g) "It is stupid to assume they are social. Maybe they are smarter than us and unlike us realize they ought not to go advertising their presence until they have the technology to defend themselves against creatures that hear the advertisement and come looking for food."
Afraid of what ET wants to do us with his red finger, Dagorath? Don't worry we can always send a diplomatic like Bush and they will run away and never come back (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlcE3HVRlRs). Unless they have the skill to make wormholes we won't see them in a time; and if they have the skill and want to eat us, we better have a pepper bath to be tasty.

h) Final question Dagorath: assuming You also want to know (not contacting/talking/partying new year's eve)if there's life out there, using a passive way as SETI what would You suggest to look for?

Hope to hear from all You soon.

Hi all.

1st: I spoke of a book I read. Found it: "Alone in the Universe: Why Our Planet Is Unique" by John Gribbin. Just in case someone may be interested in reading it. It's somewhat sad (for a lover of science fiction as me), for everything this man says leads to think there's nearly no chance to find intelligent life out there

Here is a link to the book at Amazon where there is also a review of the book. from the review I gather Gibbins doesn't deny that other life does/did/will exist; he simply says the chance of finding it is infinitesimally small. And I agree. Therefore, if we are going to spend resources on a search then it better be a good search based on a methodology that makes sense, not just some useless, senseless, half-baked idea like SETI that serves no other purpose than to give us the comfort of saying we are trying. SETI isn't even a try.

3rd. @ Dagorath.

First question should be: are we (mankind) interested in finding evidences of intelligence out there?

a) making mistakes is not proper nor beneficial for mankind. It's simply the way we're made (unfortunately). But fortunately we learn of them.
What I meant to say was that SETI's been working for quite long. If what You say is correct, and their search method is not correct well, we've been for years being silly. So, we've learned from the mistake, so it's time to change the point of view and look for another search method.

Agreed but I think we should have stopped wasting CPU time on it long ago. It was OK when there was nothing else to crunch but now that we have projects that have far greater chance of success wasting CPU time on SETI is sinful and should be illegal in times like this when out energy consumption is hurting the environment and the cost of energy is skyrocketing.

b)about probes.
Here I agree with BilBg, probes may not yet be the answer to the problem. To begin with they're very expensive, prone to problems both in launch and in later operation. Taking them to the edge of the Solar System may take decades (i.e. voyager I & II). IIUC You didn't suggested sending probes to near stars, just outside the solar system to "listen" for others. That would pose another problem, keeping in touch with the probe; any order would've to be anticipated for long times for the orders to reach the probe (may be possible though...)

Current probe technology is definitely inadequate and I was remiss in leaving the impression we should use current tech. No, that would be as senseless as SETI. We need to develop better engines before we send a deep space probe and discover if warp travel is possible and develop it if it is possible. Instead we under-fund and hamper the research we need to do to accomplish that and spend it instead on stupid crap like invading helpless countries like Iraq to look for WMD that any fool could see did not exist.

IMHO, by now the better way to search for ET's is the passive way. With big antennas/radio telescopes/telescopes/freaks with telescopes, whatever; not going for them with probes. Where to put the devices? Moon, middle of the space, near Saturn or in the parking lot that's nothing I can say for lack of knowledge.

Well if you did have the knowledge you admit you lack you would see that is not a great solution for signals that originate far away. And that is the crux of the matter... the chance that there is life intelligent enough to send us signals and that it is near enough that an antenna would work is so small we may as well say it's zero. OK, do it if you have everything else taken care of but there are so many other pressing problems that have much greater chance of success you have to be nuts to waste even a nickel on SETI.

d) about the hydrogen assumption.
IIRC of my studies, whatever the senses other species may have, hydrogen will behave exactly for them as for us. You only need the correct instruments to detect the caracteristics.

But only if their primary senses lead them to a reality construct that includes hydrogen. Hydrogen is only a construct of our reality much as the Earth centric universe the ancients built from their senses and which we now know is wrong. What we see as a hydrogen atom may something entirely different to an alien's senses and logic. For all we know they could be issuing glub glubs thinking that glug glubs are so abundant and pervasive in all of the universe that any idiot with a dish antenna should be able to detect them. What they hell are glub glubs? I don't know! Only the aliens know! My senses don't detect glub glubs! Or there could be some other number they think is more sensible than the hydrogen related numbers and they are transmitting radio signals at that frequency. There is an infinite number pf possibilities that might make more sense to them than hydrogen. For us to assume it must be hydrogen is so blatantly stupid I have trouble understanding how those morons could ever be granted Ph.Ds. I also have trouble understanding how anybody could be so stupid as to fund them.

Another thing is if aliens may, or not, pay atention to hydrogen. I supose SETI uses the hydrogen for it's the most commont element in space and so easy to obtain.

It's the most abundant in space butwhay does that make it the thing aliens will chose to base their transmissions on. Why not some multiple of pi? Why not helium, it's what hydrogen fuses to within stars, it's also abundant and unlike hydrogen it's a noble gas... far more interesting. Why not 3, the number of angles in the simplest 2D figure? Why not the Boltzmann constant? Why not the string consisting of the first 5 primary numbers? Why not Avogadro's number? Yeah, I could list you a million things that are just as likely to be interesting to an alien as hydrogen and have far more chance of being part of an alien's reality construct.

e) "Emitted by every star in our version of reality not necessarily in theirs."
Are You thinking of a non-baryonic mater civilization? In this case, AFAIK, we'll have big troubles contacting them.

That's not what I was thinking but that is another possibility.

Or perhaps thinking on parallel universes? In this case, I think it'll be impossible to contact them.

Another possibility. Or a string universe. I mean for gawd's sake we aren't even sure why matter has mass yet we're assuming every intelligent lifeform in the universe will think only of hydrogen's absorption-emission lines/frequencies. Stupid beyond belief!

f) ET's attitude: I think it was Paulli (not sure) who once asked: "If they're not here, where are they?".
There may be ET's but: 1) they may not be technologicaly advanced like us 150 years ago; 2)may have technology enough, but happy simply watching their own belly button and finding it very beautiful; 3) with technology and ravenous to find someone out there (us in this case) whatever for (eating/mating/sharing with/talking to us).
As Dagorath's says it's obvious we can only count with ourselves (unfortunately when ruled by people like nowadays politicians)

[quote]g) "It is stupid to assume they are social. Maybe they are smarter than us and unlike us realize they ought not to go advertising their presence until they have the technology to defend themselves against creatures that hear the advertisement and come looking for food."
Afraid of what ET wants to do us with his red finger, Dagorath? Don't worry we can always send a diplomatic like Bush and they will run away and never come back (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlcE3HVRlRs). Unless they have the skill to make wormholes we won't see them in a time; and if they have the skill and want to eat us, we better have a pepper bath to be tasty.

That has more to do with them finding us so I'm dealing with that but in a nutshell yes I am worried about what they might do. Being eaten is the least of my worries because it means you die and that's all. I would be more worried about being turned into a slave and forced to live a painful life or being used for medical experiments the way we use monkeys and rabbits. And anyone who passes that off with a "we'll send Bush to deal with it" is out of touch for that impotent dolt won't scare them even for a second.

h) Final question Dagorath: assuming You also want to know (not contacting/talking/partying new year's eve)if there's life out there, using a passive way as SETI what would You suggest to look for?

That is a very, very, very important question. The answer is that I am content to know that the universe is so incredibly vast and the number of permutations of the fundamental building blocks is so incredibly huge that there must be, must have been or will be other sentient life. The answer is that I would not use a passive way such as SETI. I would recognize that spending even a nickel on such an investigation is a waste of money and would instead spend that on a more sensible investigation. You see I refuse to let my passions and desires lure me into doing something useless and wasteful, not even so that I can, as you said in a previous post, say that I am at least trying. Doing something that has no hope is not trying it is mediocrity and a waste of resources that could be used for a genuine try, a try that has some chance of success. It is a lie that just any old try is worthwhile. Some trys are just stupid and self-destructive and counter-productive, SETI for example. Oh yah, we can say that we now know what does not work but it was possible to see that the day SETI was proposed.

@Jan Vaclavik and Dagorath:it seems you both don't understand why people crunch only in SETI 24/7/365. Maybe this will answer this question.
There's plenty of people stubborn to the bone; there's people whose fidelity is out of question. Join both, fidelity-stubborness and You have it.
As I said I began with SETI, but soon discovered the rest of projects. Some are interesting and others, well... I don't even know/understand what they do (e.g.: DistrRTgen) but they also had their share of my little computing power. Only recently I started again with SETI with the goal of getting to 500k points (silly I know; vanitas vanitatis).

Switching to the discussion of, is SETI's search method good or bad, let me ask all of You a question.
All of us know hydrogen seems to be the most common element in the known (baryonic) universe; there are still many things unknown to us (specially me) meaning that perhaps still have to discover unkonwn natural processes/objects/stars/pulsars or whatever.
The use of the vibration of the most common element may be seen by someone as aliens, though it can be the result of an unkown process we still have to discover (i.e.: what happened at the beginning with pulsars, the first of them named LGM).
Wouldn't it be better to search for more rare elements?
I have in mind elements as plutonium, uranium or the kind; elements not easily found in nature and that in most cases their existence in enough quantities together requires the existence of advanced technology. If I'm right, there are satellites (military) which search for possible nuclear explosions out in space (IIRC the serendipity which lead to discover the GRB's). Can a nuclear explosion be detected in long distances? Any way to make plutonium/uranium or so atoms vibrate the way of the hydrogen atoms?

I think that would really tell us we've found intelligent ET's (if they don't kill themselves).

I'm asking for I don't know if that's similar to the said vibration of hydrogen (the only vibration I know of recently is that of the mobile phones).

@ Dagorath: you talk about wars against small and poor countries... like Iraq. That war was prepared for some oil companies who ruled that puppet (hmmm, named... Bush?) in orther to get Iraq's oil cheaper; the problem is that in the USA, it seems, there're still a few people who think their president owns the TRUTH (if he says so, so we do). USA is still a very young nation, still haven't learned that politicians lie and only care for their interests. They're mesmerized with their flag, listening their hymn hand over heart with a tear in their eyes and with the expression "the president of the United States of America" (hearing this everyday may make them feel safe). Obviously they're just a few but it seems they still have power.
But don't be sad, wars have always been economical matters, beginning with the famous war on Troya, nothing else than the Greeks of the time against those who ruled the commerce with the pontus euxinus (add some gods, two cups of heroes, 2cc of love, 25 litres of death, and You have the Illiad).
One day we'll forget about this, or simply die due to this. Who knows...

heh, Saran d'Wrap,

Back to spew a little of your own venom and holier than thou-ness, eh? As if your abandoning the 600 tasks wasn't enough of an insult. Yeah, we feel nothing but love from you too, dude.

Hey dude,

No venom my friend. Just checking in to see what you spew.

"Holier than thou-ness"? No, I don't think so. But, I do consider myself to be better because I don't go around slashing peoples throats for asking a simple question, unlike you.

As for the 600 "abandoned" tasks: I saw no point in wasting CPU time on them since they were beyond their deadline. If you cannot understand that, well...

One more thing: Cut the childishness. Calling people names or hacking their user name is just so childish. I don't do it to you and have not. I do not expect it from adults. What does that say about you? :)

Until I see you next round of venom, have a great day! :)

Keep on BOINCing...! :)

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CMDR Siran d'Vel'nahr XO
USS Vre'kasht NCC-33187

Siran's website: [ ONLINE! ]

Hi all.

-[ snip ]-

2nd: Siran, I've my doubts Dagorath can ever be said to be a priest... perhaps with his alien friends (with whom he visited Cheliabinsk last day...). By the way, You treat him as a women, but IIRC, he once said he had bet something with his wife. Obviously it doesn't matter what he/she is, as long as he keeps as he/she is.

-[ snip ]-

Greetings Enric,

Thanks for informing me. I had a suspicion that Dagorath was a dude, but was not sure. He surely acted like a dude with a really nasty attitude toward people who ask simple questions. He acts like the rest of the world should automatically know what he knows. I wonder what he was like before he knew everything and had to ask himself. I wonder now if he may have gotten treated the way he treated me when I asked my question. Oh well...

Have a great day, Enric! :)

Keep on BOINCing...! :)

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CMDR Siran d'Vel'nahr XO
USS Vre'kasht NCC-33187

Siran's website: [ ONLINE! ]

607

607

Greetings cykodennis,

I stand corrected. Somewhere in past posts I do believe I stated '600+'. I was not sure of the exact number except that it was 600+. Thanks! :)

Cool user name. I like the letter usage. :)

Have a great day! :)

Keep on BOINCing...! :)

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CMDR Siran d'Vel'nahr XO
USS Vre'kasht NCC-33187

Siran's website: [ ONLINE! ]

Thanks, it has its roots in Wintermute, Marx and Infected Mushroom.