Posts by jujube

1) (Message 372)
Posted 8 Nov 2012 by jujube
Post:
Found and edited the config file alone? You are one very brave soul! Or maybe Linux isn't so impossible after all.

Meanwhile, I have been informed the link to the virtual machine image I posted at the top of this thread is broken. Sorry, my bad. I'll fix it ASAP and post a new link here.
2) (Message 366)
Posted 7 Nov 2012 by jujube
Post:
Yes, it should be in the lower right corner but it isn't there on my Ubuntu 12.04 and BOINC manager 7.0.27. Fortunately the View menu at the top of the Simple View windows works (at least for me it works), click it and select Advanced. If that doesn't work then I'm afraid even the dreaded command line won't help and (dare I even speak of the horror) you will have to edit a config file. Pray the View menu works, pray very hard. If it doesn't then let us know and we'll bring whisky and a stick to bite down on while you edit the config file.
3) (Message 362)
Posted 6 Nov 2012 by jujube
Post:
How do I force an app download?


There are 2 ways: easy way and hard way

1) Go to the project home page, click the Applications link, if there is no Windows app in the list then proceed to step 2 otherwise update Asteroids@home in BOINC manager

2) Go to the Windows application thread, check all the whining about the lack of Windows app, note the whining hasn't done any good so far, ponder whether more whining will speed things up

3) If you decide whining is the best way to proceed then whine, wait 3 days, go back to step 1. If you prefer an easier way then proceed to step 4

4) Go to An easy Windows solution thread, check how easy it is to install a virtual Linux box on your Windows computer, install it, crunch some Asteroids tasks
4) (Message 344)
Posted 1 Nov 2012 by jujube
Post:
The best method for learning with linux is to erase the windows and install linux only. That's how I started to learn with linux. When I needed to do something I just had to learn it and couldn't just boot to windows to do it.


That's right.


Like many things in life the biggest hurdle is just making the commitment. It's like quitting smoking... the first 3 days are hard but after that you know you did the right thing. Now all you people whose first thought is "I tried quitting smoking and I can't do it", ummmm, that's the reason you can't do it. What Yoda said to Luke Skywalker is true, "Try? There is no try! Just do it". Do it and be free.
5) (Message 340)
Posted 31 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
My solution is to acquire another hard drive, second hand is fine, 10GB or larger, and put it in your computer in place of the Windows hard drive and install Linux on it.
You will then be able to install BOINC and run Asteroids @ Home without any need for a virtual machine.
It is easy to physically swap over hard drives if you need to use Windows again.


You don't need to have a second disk. You can install Linux on the same disk as Windows without destroying Windows. In other words both OSs exist on the same hard drive simultaneously and when you boot the machine you are asked which OS you want to boot and then that OS boots. It's called "dual-boot". You can have many OSs all installed on the same disk, up to a maximum of 128 IIRC, and you just select which one to boot at boot time. You can easily delete any one or all of the OSs and recover the space they used on your disk.

The advantage of installing a virtual Linux machine on Windows is that you can have Windows and Linux running simultaneously, there is no need to boot back and forth between the two. It's also easier to setup than a dual-boot system, especially since I've supplied a virtual Linux machine image for you to simply import, it saves you a lot of work.
6) (Message 333)
Posted 24 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
<stderr_txt>
15:49:49 (17224): No heartbeat from core client for 30 sec - exiting

</stderr_txt>
]]>[/code]


Perhaps it was a problem with the client rather than the project application. Apparently there is only 1 "no heartbeat from core client" message in the stderr output but I wonder if there are many more such messages in client_state.xml prior to 15:49:49? Remember the app uses UTC whereas the client uses local time. If there is then that might explain why the application was doing nothing. IIRC, most science apps will tolerate 100 no heartbeats at which point they'll exit with an error, no guarantee this project's app behaves the same way and there is no guarantee it sits idle between attempts to detect a client heartbeat. Hmmm. Actually now that I think about it I would say the application sent the client the "end task" signal but didn't get a heartbeat or response so it sat through 100 or more no heartbeat cycles (the long dormant time you noticed) then you killed it. Yes, that would explain why no memory map, open files, etc. It doesn't explain why there was no heartbeat from the client but we don't want to solve a good mystery all at once.
7) (Message 325)
Posted 24 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
ccandido,

Your computers are hidden which makes it difficult for others to view your results and help you diagnose problem. Please unhide them. There is NOTHING in the information we can see about your computers that helps us attack your computer. Many believe that knowing your IP address helps others attack but nobody except you can see your IP address, it is hidden from us. I have put in the extra effort required to view your results but many others are not willing to do so. Please unhide your computers.

This stderr output from one of your failed tasks indicates the application is unable to access a shared lib named libgcc_s.so.1. A shared lib is a Linux equivalent to a Winmdows dll. That's very puzzling for me because the ldd command indicates the application is a static build which means it should not need to access any shared libs. Also, it seems you installed the Dotsch/UX based virtual machine I mentioned in the Easy Windows solution thread. If that is correct then your VM already has libgcc_s.so.1 installed with permissions set to allow everybody to access it. Anybody else have any insight into this?

edit added:

Sorry,my mistake, you did not install the Dotsch/UX based VM, you created your own Debian VM. You said your Debian is 64 bit but the stderr report says the task is using the 32 bit Asteroids application. It's late and I'm sleepy, I'm stumped for now. I'll have another look at it in the morning though I suspect someone else will have it figured out by then.
8) (Message 319)
Posted 18 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
Hi everyone,

Well sorry but after running VirtualBox for LHC Test4Theory@home I did not like it and I don't intend to install it again on my machine.
So if we can't get a Windows app., I will not be able to participate here......



It's not surprising you don't like running VirtualBox after running Test4Theory. The problem is not with VirtualBox, it's with the way the T4T project uses VirtualBox. To be specific the problem is with the wrapper T4T uses to start/stop the VM. Their wrapper was a total disaster from the very beginning of the project and they have done next to nothing to fix it.

The implementation I have proposed in this thread does not use a wrapper and it completely avoids 99% of the problems encountered at T4T. If you would try it I think you would see it's much better than the T4T implementation.

Any ways I don't see why i would have to adapt for a project, when I think the project should adapt for the most widely used OS.......

Sorry guys,
Gentilli.


But what if the project cannot adapt to the most widely used OS? What if it is impossible for them to adapt? Maybe in the future there will be a native Windows app but if you want to crunch this project now and you run Windows or OS X then my proposal is the easiest option for you. And maybe there will never be a native Windows or OS X app. I have a hunch you can't understand how that could possibly be and that (it it's true) tells me you don't understand how computers are programmed so you're just going to have to take the word of those of us who do understand computer programming when we tell you it's possible in theory but maybe not in practice.
9) (Message 318)
Posted 18 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
It was easy to install and it works well. I definately need more ram.

Thanks


What makes you think you need more RAM, is your computer sluggish when the VM is running? If so we can make a few adjustments which should help. First, the total number of projects running on your computer should not exceed the number of cores you have. I see you have 2 cores and I assume that before you installed VBox you allowed BOINC to use both cores in order to run 2 projects simultaneously. Now that you have BOINC running in the VM you cannot allow the BOINC running in the real machine to use 2 cores because then you would have 3 projects running which would cause a lot of task switching and perhaps sluggish performance in your own computing tasks. You should go into the BOINC preferences on the real machine and set BOINC to use only 50% of the cores. Then you'll have 1 project running on the real machine plus the one in the VM for a total of 2 projects. Try that if you haven't already done so and let us know if it helps.

There are other adjustments we can make too if the above suggestion doesn't help but let's just try one thing at a time.
10) (Message 314)
Posted 16 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
No problem. Let us know how it works for you.
11) (Message 312)
Posted 15 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
I didn't make a 32 bit version available until just a few minutes ago so I don't think you found it. It's named dotschux_1.2_32b_vm.ova .
12) (Message 309)
Posted 14 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
Ooops! The link to the VM provided in step 2 in the previous post is broken, my bad. Download it here instead. It provides a VM for 64 bit CPUs. I didn't create one for 32 bit CPUs because I don't think there is a demand for one but I will if anybody asks.

Also, the VM would probably run well in 256 MB RAM if the GUI were disabled. That would mean you would have to use a command line interface to control BOINC but that's easily done when you're attached to only 1 project.
13) (Message 308)
Posted 13 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
While the project devs work on the Windows app, VM solution or whatever they have in mind, here is a fairly easy way for Windows users to get going. Briefly it requires downloading and installing VirtualBox then downloading and importing a Linux virtual machine I have created for you. This method saves a lot of work for you.

1) Download and install VirtualBox

Download and install the Windows version from this page .


2) Download the Linux virtual machine

It's named dotschux_1.2_64b_vm.ova, get it here. Save it to disk, remember the name of the folder you save it to. It's about 750 MB so it's a BIG download but it can't be helped. Yes, it is compressed, no it does not have a .zip extension but trust me it IS compressed. Don't try to uncompress it, VirtualBox Manager will take care of that.

3) Import the Linux virtual machine

On the Windows Start menu start Oracle VM VirtualBox which is better known as VirtualBox Manager which is the name I will use to refer to it. Click File -> Import -> Choose, navigate to the folder to which you saved dotschux_1.2_64b_vm.ova, select dotschux_1.2_64b.ova and click Next, tick the "reset MAC address" box, click Import, wait until the import is finished (may take several minutes).

4) Setup BOINC in the virtual machine

After the import is finished you should see a VM (a virtual machine) named dotschux_1.2_64b in VirtualBox Manager's main window, click it to highlight it then click Start. The VM will start in a new window and Dotsch/UX will boot in it. At the login prompt use boinc for the username then hit ENTER, use boinc for the password followed by ENTER also. You can change your username later if you want but it really isn't necessary, your BOINC credits will go to the account you attach the host to not to boinc.

Once the VM is booted you'll see an icon named BOINC manager icon on the desktop. Click it and attach to whatever projects you want.

The Dotsch/UX virtual machine is as close to having a separate Linux machine as you can get without actually having one. The VM has no knowledge of the Windows host machine it is running on and therefore cannot affect/attack the host machine in any way other than the standard ways any machine on the same LAN can affect/attack.

You can run BOINC on the Windows host simultaneously with the BOINC in the VM however you should decrease the number cores available to BOINC on the host by whatever number of cores you wish to allocate to BOINC in the VM. I believe the VM is configured to use only 1 core. Subsequent discussion in this thread will probably get around to steps for changing the number of cores the VM can use which will allow you to allocate more than 1 core to BOINC in the VM, if you feel the need to.

5) General Linux stuff to get you started

You can install any one of several different desktops in Linux. I'm not talking different wallpapers or themes on the same desktop like in Windows I am talking different desktops that not only look different but work different and have different functionality too. Dotsch/UX comes with a desktop named gnome and on the gnome desktop the Applications menu item at the top left corner is equivalent to Windows Start menu. Dotsch didn't include many applications in Dotsch/UX because his intention was to keep it small enough to install on and boot from a smallish thumb drive so you won't see much just some basic/essential stuff. You may install more apps if you wish but you might need to increase the size of the virtual disk from the current 4 MB to do so. Let's leave that discussion for another day.

6) Shutting down the VM

There are 2 ways to shutdown:

a) Click System -> Shutdown -> Shutdown. This actually shutsdown the OS and when the VM notices the OS is shutdown it shuts itself down too. When you restart the VM from VirtualBox Manager the OS needs to reboot which can take several minutes, not that there is anything wrong with that.

b) Click the X in the upper right corner of the VM then click Save The Machine State. This method doesn't actually shutdown the OS it just pauses execution of the VM, saves its state then exits the VM. This is a faster way to exit the VM and it takes less time to restart too because the OS doesn't need to reboot it just resumes execution where it was paused and saved, not that this is a better way, it's just a little faster. There are certain things you cannot do with a VM that has been shutdown this way but that's a discussion for another day.

7) Limitations

As mentioned earlier, the VM was created with a 4 GB disk which doesn't leave room for a lot of expansion. It was created with 512 MB RAM which may be more than is necessary. I haven't played much with it but it seemed sluggish with only 256MB RAM, perhaps 384 MB would be adequate. Dotsch suggests 2 to 2.5 GB just for the OS so I have left 1.5 to 2 GB for BOINC and whatever other apps you may want to run in the VM.

8) Acknowledgements

I used Dotsch/UX to create the VM. Dotsch/UX is just another flavor of Linux more specifically another Ubuntu derivative. It uses the Ubuntu kernel. Dotsch/UX was created by Dotsch, a boincer and Linux guru you may have run into in the forums. Very smart cookie that Dotsch. I can't say he knows everything about BOINC and Linux but I am confident that if he doesn't know it then it's probably not worth knowing ;-)
14) (Message 307)
Posted 10 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:

You missed the point.


Yes, but, Windows is more popular though innit? Isn't it though? Isn't it?


In some contexts it is but in many contexts it's not.
15) (Message 305)
Posted 10 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
I was going to say it doesn't make sense to develop for GPU when they don't even have a CPU solution for Windows but maybe it does make sense to just forget about CPUs and go straight to the big guns. That's kind of what GPUgrid did, it worked well for them, perhaps it could work well here too.
16) (Message 304)
Posted 10 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
Probably the project until enough computing resources. Jobs is not enough. Increases productivity is not necessary.


If I understand correctly from reading the info at this project and its forums, this project's work requires enormous resources so I assume (correct me if I am wrong) the admins probably want to attract many more volunteers and increase the work flow considerably. I am certain they will find a way to allow Winblows machines to work too but some Linux apps are incredibly difficult to import to other platforms and vice-versa. For example, the task of porting the Linux apps used at Test4Theory project is so difficult they decided to not even attempt it and to use a virtual machine instead. Even Linux hosts at T4T have to run the virtual machine at T4T.

I'm sure the Asteroids admins are glad they have interest from Winblows users but talking to them as if they don't already know they need Winblows support is an insult to them. It won't help them develop a Winblows solution any sooner. If you wish to insult them then be prepared to receive some insults and know that as a Winblows lemming you are an extremely easy target. If you wish to add something productive or at least humorous to the discussion then I'm sure the community welcomes that but annoying twit lemming type comments won't get you what you want.
17) (Message 302)
Posted 10 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
Lack of a Windows application deprives the project of a large number of participants.


Would someone please provide some bug infested, security risk piece of crap software for the lemmings so they'll STFU? They'll love you for it and they'll love you even more if you charge them $200 for it.


The best selling car brand is Ford.

Ford is nowhere near as good Honda, BMW, Toyota, VW etc.

But Ford is the best selling. Ford is the most popular.

By your logic, roads should be built that Fords cannot drive on becuase there are better cars.

:-P


You missed the point. Here it is:

If I build a road that your Ford isn't capable of driving on then don't talk to me like I'm an idiot and tell me how Ford is most popular and how I'm depriving myself of having all the Fords drive on my road because I already know Ford is most popular and I already know Fords can't drive on my road. Repeating the obvious over and over and over doesn't reinforce the point or make the messenger appear intelligent it just makes the messenger look like a pompous ass.

It's been mentioned many times at this project, in these very forums, by the admins themselves, that a solution for Winblows is in the works. Why is that not good enough? Why do lemmings need to stand up one by one and tell us what we already know: that Winblows outnumbers Linux and the project is missing out by not having a Winblows app. The admins already know that. Repeating it over and over and over is not going to speed up the delivery of the Winblows solution.

We should be able to discuss whatever we want in these forums and I support that 100% but if the discussion is about the admin being an idiot (and that is EXACTLY what the repetitive messages about Winblows being more popular and the project losing out on CPU cycles is all about) then fine let's discuss that point and see who the idiot is.

BTW, Ford might not be the best vehicle but they have some very nice options. For example they now offer a heated tailgate option on trucks sold in Canada.
18) (Message 293)
Posted 7 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
Lack of a Windows application deprives the project of a large number of participants.


Sure enough, one by one, just like the good predictable brain dead little lemmings they are, every Winblows user comes to the edge of the cliff, babbles forth what the previous lemming babbled forth then plunges over the cliff. Hilarious!!

What's even more hilarious.... they all sincerely believe they are telling the rest of the world something profound, something nobody but them has been able to figure out. ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Would someone please provide some bug infested, security risk piece of crap software for the lemmings so they'll STFU? They'll love you for it and they'll love you even more if you charge them $200 for it.
19) (Message 290)
Posted 4 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
After some more testing I've found out that if BOINC is installed like Protected Service then it has no rights to start virtual machine and I couldn't figure out how to solve it. I tried changes rights in exe files or registry keys but nothing. The other problem is that if it worked a normal user wouldn't do such things to get it work. It seems to me that I will have to continue with making native app afterall. There are still some troubles with windows so I am very sorry that the windows app isn't still prepared.


On Windows BOINC must be installed using the default installation settings which means that in the third (maybe fourth?) screen in the installer the user must not click Advanced button and select Protected Application Execution. If BOINC is already installed with Protected Application Execution option selected then the user must reinstall BOINC and make sure that option is not selected. It's actually very easy.

At the Test4Theory project we found that most Windows users use the default installation and thus have no problem. Those who do not have the default installation are very willing to redo the install and select the default. Most users just use the defaults so it's not a big problem.

Another way to avoid the problem is to run the VM in headless mode which means do not allow it to start it's own screen/window. Then BOINC (the wrapper) can run the VM even if BOINC is installed with Protected Application Execution option turned on. Of course the user cannot see what is going on inside the VM but if the VM is stable then there is little need to see inside it.

Have you discussed the wrapper with Rom Walton? Rom and a few of us did some extensive testing of a VM wrapper about a year ago at a special test project. Few, if any, of the methods/concepts learned from the test project were incorporated into the Test4Theory wrapper and that is why the Test4Theory wrapper is basically still a mess today. I advise to not let the experiences from Test4Theory influence you. Most of their troubles are caused by their steadfast refusal to incorporate tested improvements into their own wrapper. You can do better than that :-)
20) (Message 285)
Posted 2 Oct 2012 by jujube
Post:
The benefit of a shorter deadline in my opinion has nothing to do with people who actually do the work. It is for those systems that take thousands of work units and never touch them. It helps the project and the wingmen to have those units expire sooner so they can be given to a machine that will process them.


But then the task still must expire before it gets resent to a 3rd host. IMHO, a better way to handle the problem with hosts caching excessive numbers of tasks is to use the server-side setting that limits the number of tasks a host can have in progress. The admins can use the option to restrict hosts to having only 1 task in progress per core even if the owner has specified a 10 day cache. 1 task per core is probably too low, 2 or 4 is probably more realistic.

I think a 7 day deadline is reasonable for work that takes 3 hours to complete. Crunchers can easily handle a weekend of downtime on either end with no ill affect. It seems to me to be a win/win suggestion.


I agree, a 7 day deadline for approximately 3 hour tasks is reasonable. However, I think that if we request change then we should present realistic and factual arguments to support our request. IMHO, some of the arguments presented in this thread are not based on fact.


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