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Markus Sadeniemi

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Message 543 - Posted: 2 Jan 2013, 17:59:11 UTC
Asteroids@home project has one advantage over many others: the results are understandable for everyone. An asteroid is a piece of rock or ice that circles around the sun, it has a shape and colour and it rotates at certain speed. If you show a picture of it and give some parameters, then everyone gets an idea what it looks like. The same cannot be said of most @home projects. Nobody can show me proteine folding in a way that would make me any wiser!

Perhaps asteroids@home could take benefit from this.

1 Make a simple counter on the web page: "We have so far calculated xxx asteroids." That should be easy.

2 On page http://asteroidsathome.net/scientific_results.html you have info on two asteroids. Make instead an "asteroid of the month" -page to show a new asteroid every month (or week).

The page could contain pictures of the asteroid, rotation axes and speed, diameter and perhaps Keplerian elements of its orbit.

I would guess, that most asteroids look dull. They are sperical and don't have color variation. Probably "asteroid of the month" should not be an average one, but rather one that is ice on one side and dusty on the other or pehaps has a cigar-like shape. Something that would make one different from another.

3 Even better would be, if this could be made personal. "This is what *your* asteroid looks like". (With *your* meaning, you calculated the last piece needed for this asteroid.)

I wonder how it could be delivered to the person in question. Personal web page? Screen saver? Dullness might be a real problem as there would not be many asteroid models to choose from.

Something like this could make the project more attractive to potential participants (and maybe teach some astronomy for a few people).

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Markus Sadeniemi
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Message 545 - Posted: 2 Jan 2013, 21:20:15 UTC
I am consireding it, don't worry, there will be improvements on web site in future.
About screensaver, I think that it can be motivating thing I want to make one but I don't know if there is any problem between win and linux version like the main app was. It is another thing I have to test.
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Dagorath

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Message 546 - Posted: 2 Jan 2013, 22:54:27 UTC

Last modified: 2 Jan 2013, 23:02:05 UTC
There is a hypothesis that a screen saver attracts many more crunchers to a project. It is just a hypothesis and you will find only 6 crunchers and 4 sock puppets believe it is true.

On the main BOINC website there was a poll that asked how important screensavers are. The results indicate very few people decide to not run a project just because it doesn't have a screensaver. If they like the science your project does they will attach it even if no screensaver.

Is a screensaver a valuable marketing tool? Obviously the answer is... it depends on how many people see it. If you think about it you realize that for the average person very few other people see their PC so there is little chance other people will see a screensaver. In addition to that, screensavers do not run all the time so even if another person sees your PC the screensaver isn't necessarily running anyway.

Screensavers work as marketing tools when they are in an office with many workers passing by the machine but in most cases the employer won't allow workers to install screensavers. So there is little point. It's a good theory but it does not work in practice.

There are Windows vs. Linux problems with screensavers.

Invest your time first in the things that will earn you the greatest increases in computing power. IMHO the best investment for you at this time is a GPU application. The reasons are:

1) The computing power of GPUs is increasing according to Moore's Law or better

2) The rate at which crunchers are buying GPUs is increasing rapidly because they are abundant on Ebay and because the new models are reasonably priced. Crunchers are selling their GPU every year and buying the latest model just to use for crunching. Watch the forums at GPUgrid and you will know this is true.

3) The sooner you get on board the GPU train the sooner you add serious crunching power to your project. The people who are intrigued with screensavers are intrigued by many bright colorful things. When they have even a small problem with BOINC they uninstall it and run off to play with some new flashing colorful thing that grabs their attention. They are of limited help to you.

GPU app first, screensaver after that.

If project admins were smart they would get together and convince a major celebrity to promote BOINC. You could reach millions of new people that way, millions. But for gawds sake don't mention BOINC and SETI in the same sentence becuase the average person thinks wasting electricitylooking for aliens ois stupid and they are right. Leasve SETI out of it and talk about medical research, astronomy research, math research, whatever, not alien hunting. Doesn't matter if SETI started it all and SETI is the testbed for BOINC, the average person thinks its crazy and won't join BOINC if you mention SETI along with BOINC.
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Enric Surroca

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Message 568 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 16:39:37 UTC
"you will find only 6 crunchers and 4 sock puppets believe it is true". Don't forget: 6 out of 10 dentists suggest screensavers.

I agree with Dagorath. GPU apps are a must have. Just an example: un wu of einstein or SETI with CPU takes, approx., 7-8hours; with the GPU einstein takes 27 min. and SETI more or less 13 min (with my small GTX 550Ti; and assuming both, CPU and GPU wu's, do the same amount of work). So GPU app is first on the wish list.

But in other forums I've read that it is really complicated to prepare the GPU apps. (I have not even the smallest idea of that, but that's what they say). So it is a big time consuming task, and besides it requires certain knwoledge of each architecture (Nvidia/ATI). Sorry, I can't help here besides a humble "Cheers!! cheers!!, go for it admins!!!.

But after that a screensaver is not a bad idea to help science ignorants as me to see a little inside Your science world and try to make an idea of what are we wasting our money in.

My opinion on the subject: GOOOOD for GPU apps. GOOD for screensaver.
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cykodennis

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Message 569 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 20:26:21 UTC
A@H is a fine project.
Even without GPU App and screensavers. You don't have to hurry, Kyong.
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Message 576 - Posted: 6 Jan 2013, 10:24:31 UTC
Don't worry, the screensaver is not the main priority, the priority now is optimization of current apps and focus on GPU app. But I think that screen saver is also good if it show something useful. In this case I think it would be good for users to take a look of how is the shape progress of the asteroid they are computing. Even if it is the thing that is changing during the computation. But that is just theoretical now of what it could show but when I am making it I will see what there can be and what problems are there.
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cykodennis

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Message 579 - Posted: 6 Jan 2013, 23:38:49 UTC - in response to Message 576.  
I like the results page, with the finished Asteroids so far.
I wonder if I've finished an Asteroid too.
This would be an nice marketing gag. An actualized lists with the finished asteroids, and who was the lucky cruncher.

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Enric Surroca

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Message 581 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 11:59:24 UTC

Last modified: 7 Jan 2013, 12:00:00 UTC
"don't mention BOINC and SETI in the same sentence becuase the average person thinks wasting electricitylooking for aliens ois stupid and they are right."

Can't believe... so disappointing...
Dagorath I'm sure You really don't think that. And I'm sure too that You really would like to contact a spaceship, jump to warp speed 9(or even better 25) and visit the whole galaxy and far beyond; partying with nice aliens with green horns... But You just keep it as a secret; If You ever find an E.T. make us know and I'll join You on your trip (sandwiches on my account).

The publicity would be a good idea. Perhaps Tom Cruise would be glad to announce BOINC as a way to find the aliens he likes so much... But on the other hadn: if we could get all that publicity, and hundreds of thousands of people joined... the question is: how many projects could stand so many computers conneting daily? Some would die of success, don't You think?
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Tom_unoduetre

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Message 583 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 15:46:16 UTC
Morning :-)

Just wanted to add some cents to the discussion around project marketing:

Releasing the windows app was already a great start to make this project more attractive and known to the people out there, so thank you very much for that.

Pretty important in Marketing and PR is to never stop the communication to the clients, in this case the crunchers (well, in the BOINC world a lot of projects actually haven´t really started to talk...) so if needed and you feel the projects needs more crunching power (maybe the current situation is good enough which is of course fine) then what you could do is to create a twitter and/or facebook and/or Google+ etc. account, make sure your RSS feed is included in some other external websites (boincstats, free-dc etc.) and post news about the progress of the project on this site. Those are all activities which doesn´t cost a thing except some time and would mark a good start.

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Dagorath

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Message 584 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 16:45:07 UTC - in response to Message 581.  
Enric,

Read what you wrote. Your argument is all about an emotion... love, you said it yourself... love of finding an alien. You didn't say a thing about the chances of SETI research methods being successful. I believe there are aliens and yes I would love to meet one but I don't let that emotion cloud my judgement regarding the chances of SETI's success. Their chance of success is so close to 0 we may as call it 0. My desire to find an alien does not increase their chances no matter how hard I wish it were so. Meanwhile the chances of finding a cure for disease is much higher than 0 and the proof is GPUgrid's recent paper on a major breakthrough on AIDS research they made using BOINC. Why waste CPU cycles on a project that has 0 chance of success when there are projects with much higher chance of success?

I meet new people every day. Every new person I meet I mention BOINC and ask them to think about running BOINC. Many of those people have already heard of BOINC and SETI and 50% of those think SETI and BOINC are the same thing. I am sorry but if you watch their faces, eyes and body language you can see that as soon as they realize what I am talking about they show a negative reaction and if I explore that reaction it becomes obvious they think SETI is a stupid waste of time and then, because they believe SETI and BOINC are the same thing they reject BOINC. And they reject me because they think if I run BOINC then I must be looking for aliens. At that point it becomes hopeless and there is no way I can convince them of anything because they think I am a fool. Many people I talk to think that way. Again, don't let your emotions about finding an alien cloud your understanding and judgement of the phenomenon I just told you about. It IS what it IS and if we pretend it is something else just because our emotions drive us then we will fail.
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Enric Surroca

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Message 585 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 17:16:02 UTC
"My desire to find an alien does not increase their chances no matter how hard I wish it were so" You forget about MAGIC? Lol Wish hard, wish hard Lol

Have You seen the movie Battleship? They just send a strange ray using a beautiful satellite and in a moment there's the alien invasion... According to the movie, light-speed limits is something that happens to others, not to the super-bad aliens they show. You see, magic happens(shit of movie...)

"SETI research methods being successful": as You know I have not the slightest idea of this. But I supose they're looking for rare types or radio signals; that's when an ignorant as me says: go scientists, that's why You studied science and I did not. As far as I know that's, more or less, the way they discovered the pulsars many years ago (naming it LGM something; LGM standing for Little Green Men) Maybe they can discover something else (not necessarily inteligent live)

"50% of those think SETI and BOINC are the same thing": normal; not only where they the creators of the beast (that is really unknown in the wide public) but they had a little glimpse of this in the movie "Contact" (damn priest, always asking "Do you believe in GOD?"; go and burn in hell You id**t priest)

The problem is not only with the target of SETI. Have you ever tried to explain someone the target of the project Einstein? Once explained it to my wife (she likes science though it's not her job) and asked me: "waves in space? hmmmm, yes dear, we should go to have supper" (and she's used to me explaining her sci-fi movies and science books I read).

Only those projects which have medical targets are normally understood by not-BOINC freaks; as You said with de GPUGrid example. That's the way.

But still, we've to keep trying to convert people to our cause.
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Dagorath

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Message 586 - Posted: 7 Jan 2013, 19:28:59 UTC - in response to Message 585.  

Last modified: 7 Jan 2013, 19:30:36 UTC
"SETI research methods being successful": as You know I have not the slightest idea of this. But I supose they're looking for rare types or radio signals; that's when an ignorant as me says: go scientists, that's why You studied science and I did not. As far as I know that's, more or less, the way they discovered the pulsars many years ago (naming it LGM something; LGM standing for Little Green Men) Maybe they can discover something else (not necessarily inteligent live)


That is true. It is called serendipity. But if serendipity can work for SETI then it can also work for projects that have a reasonable chance of achieving their primary goal. SETI has 0 chance of achieving their primary goal so it makes less sense to fall back on serendipity at SETI than at a project that has higher chance of achieving their primary goal.


"50% of those think SETI and BOINC are the same thing": normal; not only where they the creators of the beast (that is really unknown in the wide public) but they had a little glimpse of this in the movie "Contact" (damn priest, always asking "Do you believe in GOD?"; go and burn in hell You id**t priest)


Interesting. You don't believe in God yet you encourage us to believe in magic? That seems to be a contradiction.

The problem is not only with the target of SETI. Have you ever tried to explain someone the target of the project Einstein? Once explained it to my wife (she likes science though it's not her job) and asked me: "waves in space? hmmmm, yes dear, we should go to have supper" (and she's used to me explaining her sci-fi movies and science books I read).

Only those projects which have medical targets are normally understood by not-BOINC freaks; as You said with de GPUGrid example. That's the way.


Yes!! That is the way.... medical targets. Medical targets get attention and interest but SETI gets doubt and ridicule. That is EXACTLY what I find when I try to recruit the new people I meet everyday. If I can connect BOINC with medical research then they are interested. However, if BOINC connects with SETI then they are usually not interested. If you only asked them to give a smile for SETI-BOINC they would do it. But we ask them to spend time to install software and to donate electricity and hardware. A smile costs nothing so they will give that. Time and money are different. Wealthy people maybe give time and money easily but avaerage joe works hard and does not give those things away unless he sees some benefit. Aliens has no benefit, medical research does.

But still, we've to keep trying to convert people to our cause.


True, we must try. The question is: When you try will you use strategy that helps your goal or will you use strategy that deters your goal? Will you make positive connections in the minds of the people you attempt to recruit or will you make connections that are negative to them?
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Message 589 - Posted: 8 Jan 2013, 8:33:14 UTC - in response to Message 586.  
[quote]"50% of those think SETI and BOINC are the same thing": normal; not only where they the creators of the beast (that is really unknown in the wide public) but they had a little glimpse of this in the movie "Contact" (damn priest, always asking "Do you believe in GOD?"; go and burn in hell You id**t priest)

Interesting. You don't believe in God yet you encourage us to believe in magic? That seems to be a contradiction.

Not to mention God=no but hell=yes.
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Enric Surroca

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Message 590 - Posted: 8 Jan 2013, 10:11:08 UTC
I didn't say I don't believe in God.
The priest is a piece of id**t. Priest: she loved You once but now she prefers to be 2 galaxies away from You!! let her go, and don't interfere with science...

Dagorath: No contradiction at all. I should have say Maaagic... (like a whisper); big difference. I can smell it in the air, taste it in the water, feel it in the wood, be water my friend. And remember that my ally is the Maaagic (whisper again), and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Maaagic around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the asteroid up above.

Super-lol!!!!

Beyond: hell exists for sure. Just turn on the tv and watch the news around the world. They show You just a few places we could call hell. There are no demons with long red tails and red horns with a Trident at hand... hunger, disease and so on all at the same spot. Isn't that hell? I know I've been very fortunate to born where I was born; the biggest problem we have are our politicians...
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Message 591 - Posted: 8 Jan 2013, 10:48:21 UTC - in response to Message 589.  
Not to mention God=no but hell=yes.


If you are a Catholic then God = no. He says no sex, no lies, no fun, no, no, no.
If you are a Mormon then it is even worse. You are the same as a Catholic but to you God also says no wine, no beer, no coffee, no, no, no..
If you are Muslim God says no bacon, no, no, no, no.

I am a Jew. God never says no to me. I ask him "Can I go to Palestine and shoot and kill all the Palestinians and drive them off the land their families have occupied for generations, the land that feeds them? Can I have their land? To that God replies, "Yes! Take everything they own and if they resist shoot them."

If you are a Jew, God is good, He never says no, you can do anything you want. Trust me, I know, I am a Jew.

@Enric,

You are the Maaagic Man for sure! Please use the Maaaagic to install BOINC on every computer and attach them to any project except SETI.

@All

The marketing problem is solved. Maaagic Man will take of it :-)
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Message 597 - Posted: 10 Jan 2013, 1:22:15 UTC - in response to Message 590.  
Beyond: hell exists for sure. Just turn on the tv and watch the news around the world. They show You just a few places we could call hell. There are no demons with long red tails and red horns with a Trident at hand... hunger, disease and so on all at the same spot. Isn't that hell? I know I've been very fortunate to born where I was born; the biggest problem we have are our politicians...

A samurai once went to see a little monk. "monk," he said, in a voice accustomed to instant obedience, "Teach me about heaven and hell!"

The monk looked up at the mighty warrior and replied with utter disdain, "Teach you about heaven and hell? I couldn't teach you about anything. You're dirty. You smell. Your blade is rusty. You're a disgrace, an embarrassment to all samurai. Go away. I can't stand you."

The samurai was furious. He was speechless with rage. he pulled out his sword and raised it above him, preparing to slay the monk.

The monk looked up, "That's hell," said the monk softly.

The samurai was overwhelmed. The compassion and surrender of this little man who had offered his life simply to give him this teaching to show him hell! he slowly put down his sword, filled with gratitude, and suddenly peaceful.

"And that's heaven," said the monk softly.

Regards/Beyond
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